Oh Canada

[Rico]

Actually, Baron et al, I could care less about race, even if others do. As for the cultural diversity I am sick and tired of, it is that segment of a well intentioned plan gone wrong.

There's quite a nice monoculture up in these parts. Slightly to the east, and slightly to the north - all white, all conservative, all the time. They seem to like it that way, too. Don't go to far north, however. Get up into Vancouver B.C., and it's multicultural as far as the eye can see. Aboriginals, monied Hong Kong refugees, Japanese, disgruntled Albertans.

'Round these parts, no income tax (sales tax, tho'). In ID, you have both, but the total of taxes is lower. Of course, they don't like paying for public schools, so you might want to home-school. Once you get east of the Cascades, and West of the Rockies, it's solid red voters all the way to Nevada. And the countryside is pretty, too. And it's not multicultural. It's pretty much monocultural. White. Oh, but stay out of the towns that have universities. Lots of multiculturalism in those places. Liberalism, too.

I dunno about taxes and Canada, big guy. They pay a boatload in comparison to us. Well, maybe not to you in Kalifornistan, but to us here.

I hear Utah is not terribly multicultural, either. But look out if you're not Mormon. I understand that folks will keep you at a distance. But I don't know that first hand. They seemed friendly when the WLO and I went there.

Good luck, whatever you do.

[Aide-de-Camp]

Thanks.

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss. Its as if in being so diverse, we have diversified ourselves, outsourced our sense of unity, at least as someone pointed out, in larger areas perhaps but even here in a largely rural and agricultural basin the same protesting has occurred.

Its a real shock to see foreign nationals demonstrating in front of your county's courthouse for a foreign power, instead of behind the nation they live in. My mind might be too old to warp around that one.

So I celebrate like most things different and unique, but not at the cost of national unity. Multiculturalism is inherent in a Republic, and its what makes it strong and capable, that diversified mind spread across vast experiences. But unless a single body house that massive brain the arms and legs don't function, the central nervous system of the dominant culture becomes no longer central. The body shuts down. The body dies.

[Rico]

Thanks.

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss. Its as if in being so diverse, we have diversified ourselves, outsourced our sense of unity, at least as someone pointed out, in larger areas perhaps but even here in a largely rural and agricultural basin the same protesting has occurred.

Its a real shock to see foreign nationals demonstrating in front of your county's courthouse for a foreign power, instead of behind the nation they live in. My mind might be too old to warp around that one.

So I celebrate like most things different and unique, but not at the cost of national unity. Multiculturalism is inherent in a Republic, and its what makes it strong and capable, that diversified mind spread across vast experiences. But unless a single body house that massive brain the arms and legs don't function, the central nervous system of the dominant culture becomes no longer central. The body shuts down. The body dies.

I am sort of surprised that you are surprised. I mean, people here don't want to clean toilets and pick cabbage. People there, do. Supply and demand - Adam Smith writ across borders. My guess, if I had to guess, would be that 99% of those who are here illegally would rather be here legally. And of that group, I'm guessing the vast majority would welcome U.S. citizenship. I dunno - maybe if out arms were held wide, instead of crossed, there'd be more unity. Wishful thinking, I know. Maybe also if we natives weren't so intent on kicking each others' a$$es, and made a better unity example, there'd be less polarization and fractionation. Again, wishful thinking.

Bring them in, make them have a probationary period, then, if they screw up, kick them out.

Hey, you could run Clan recruitment the same way...

America has always had some sort of immigrant problem. Humans, Europeans, Chinese, Irish, Italians, Vietnamese, Russians, Central Americans...

Next up: Sunni Iraqi refugees.

Frankly, I don't see anywhere to get away from it. Well, except around here. Still, Canada's pretty darn cool. [insert frozen north joke here]

[Buzzed]

I dunno about taxes and Canada, big guy. They pay a boatload in comparison to us. Well, maybe not to you in Kalifornistan, but to us here.

41% of my earnings go to the gov treasury. Although that is high cause I have 2 jobs, it still hurts like hell. Basicly my ambulance carreer funds go direct to taxes, so I do it for the fun of it only.....

[Dataspel]

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss.

It seems to me that it is possible that the post-WW2 mainstream American culture is sick or failing. What would cause that? What
needs to be done to make it well again?

[Rico]

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss.

It seems to me that it is possible that the post-WW2 mainstream American culture is sick or failing. What would cause that? What
needs to be done to make it well again?

Postulate: After the Civil War, the U.S. was only unified in name, not in attitude. The Great Depression and WWII were huge events that focused people away from their disunity onto larger issues. Without larger issues, disunity reigns again. Celebrating diversity or not has nothing to do with this fundemental aspect of our culture.

I thought some more about celebrating diversity. My forebearers are from Sweden and Germany. Often, our family would celebrate the holidays in the style of the "old country." Our German Lutheran church had some hymns in German, and that's the way we'd sing them. On Saturdays, we'd go to the Vasa hall and have Swedish pancake breakfast. There were always Swedish flags in the hall, and rarely American flags, except on the pole outside. I used to wear a German Army winter coat - and it had the flag sewed on the shoulder. I never once thought of myself as Swedish or German. But that heritage was always around us, and still is. I have had conversations in German with one of my WLO's grad students. The WLO got a degree in Spanish as an undergrad, and uses it with some frequency among her students. We are teaching our kids Spanish as well.

I dunno - I don't think I'm any less American that the folks next door. I pay my taxes, I've served in the military, I vote every election, I obey the laws (well, my fast car *makes* me break the speed limit, but that's clearly not my fault) am married to the same woman who bore the Rico Spawn, now for 12 years (and dated this woman for 8 years prior to that), go to church on Sunday - feels pretty American-culture to me.

I still say that the cultural divide that has existed since before the Civil War still exists, and will continue to exist until such time as the USA is destroyed.

[Dataspel]

You would have to present some arguments for me to
accept the Civil War division as leading to
our current situation. For one thing, I think the depression, FDR
and WW2 pretty much buried those issues. Why else would
Southerners make up the largest percentage of membership
in America's armed forces?

American culture and opinion leads the world, there is no doubt
of that. But the culture has somehow lost it's way
and is now leading the world who knows where, imho.

[Rico]

You would have to present some arguments for me to
accept the Civil War division as leading to
our current situation. For one thing, I think the depression, FDR
and WW2 pretty much buried those issues. Why else would
Southerners make up the largest percentage of membership
in America's armed forces?

American culture and opinion leads the world, there is no doubt
of that. But the culture has somehow lost it's way
and is now leading the world who knows where, imho.

North: Industrialized, urban, less religious, more educated, more affluent, more liberal, pro federalist.

South: Agrarian, rural, more religious, less educated, less affluent, more conservative, pro states' rights.

Compare and contrast today's cultural divide with the one that existed before the Civil War.

Today's South is still rural, less affluent and less educated (measured against the average.) Poverty and lack of education have been shown to lead folks to join the military. That, and that the military attracts those from more conservative backgrounds (like mine - I grew up on a farm, poor, with very conservative parents.)

The Cold War and WWII were decades of distraction, but the underlying animosities were still there - the Civil Rights Movement history is proof of that. As is the playing out of Nixon's "southern strategy."

(I'm ditching the depression as a distraction - there was still plenty of disunity then, as well.)

I don't think there's really been any "golden age of unity", except maybe the 40s and 50s. But just like 9/11 unified us against a common external threat for a time, the large external threats in those decades unified us, against the divisions that have existed since before the Civil war, and still continue along the very same lines.

Again, this is a postulate. Not even really a hypothesis yet.

[Aide-de-Camp]

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss.

It seems to me that it is possible that the post-WW2 mainstream American culture is sick or failing. What would cause that? What
needs to be done to make it well again?

I don't think I could subscribe to the States Rights / Civil War as having been responsible for the current disharmony, nor could I attribute anything prior to let's say JKF; however, thereafter I think one can find many contributing factors which lead to a general breakdown of American Culture.

To answer Data specifically, I think it must be addressed in physical terms, that the culture is not destroyed but sick, and unless healed it will suffer a loss, if not death. So what has caused the infection then?

Foreign nationals? No. We did I fear. By not enforcing existing laws, and by becoming more polarized at the extremes of the political spectrum. The more I look at this issue and others, the more conservative I swing, yet I find myself having that stance but not necessarily subscribing to any set platform, opposed to previous years.

Perhaps this constant tearing down of the opposition is kin to cutting off fingers or hands or other body parts simply because they look offensive, or have age spots. Dunno. But something must be done.

As I've written before I try to extrapolate these things to a worst case or quasi predictable outcome and then look for data here and there to substantiate things. Clearly, the current spending trends and the current government programs can't continue without cash influx, add to this Social Security, and then the geriatric bomb, as our parents and theirs finalize their retirement only 1 in 3 persons will be paying into Social Security, etc. Without legal immigrants paying into these systems the whole house of cards tumbles.

I refuse to worry about these things each day or hour, but I can at least plan my long term asset accumulation to get ahead of the game, and California might no longer be a place where I can invest and feel secure, as taxes and other issues will negate long term planning.

Perhaps.

[Rico]

Its hard to convey, the distinct sense that recent protests across California, and really the States in general, have just given us a sense of loss.

It seems to me that it is possible that the post-WW2 mainstream American culture is sick or failing. What would cause that? What
needs to be done to make it well again?

I don't think I could subscribe to the States Rights / Civil War as having been responsible for the current disharmony, nor could I attribute anything prior to let's say JKF; however, thereafter I think one can find many contributing factors which lead to a general breakdown of American Culture.

I'm sorry, Sir - I did not mean to imply that the Civil War *caused* the divide. The differences I described existed before the Civil War. The same sorts of differences still exist. This is not postulate or hypothesis, but historical fact.

My jump from there is that in the past 20 years, this divide has been exploited and accelerated by those who can best make hay by doing so. Those who see profit and power in spin and destruction of civil discourse. The poison flows, and infects everyone - because the venom is everywhere.

I do agree that the divide has widened since JFK. And widened further under each successive president.

I do think there is a cure, but it has to come from the bottom up. It starts with the attitude that goes like this: My countryman and I might differ on our outlooks on most everything. But he is still my countryman, and that means he stands before any other. And I must be able to admit to my countryman that since I am not perfect, it is entirely possible that my position on something might *not* be correct. His point of view might actually be closer to the truth. I will give the benefit of the doubt, and respect his opinion, in the same way I would ask him to respect mine.

I thought about California some more today - and thought about how the history of the state, and the whole Southwest U.S., is more hispanic than not. I thought that New England might be a place for you - New Hampshire and Vermont are both pretty solid Northern European descent populated. And stubbornly pragmatic about most things.

[D.A.R.K.[CotC]]

WELCOME TO HISTORY 401

[TooLBlue]

Are teachers allowed to spank at this school?

[KrAzYdAvE]

Not a single chance that after being gone for 2 weeks am I actually reading all of this...
I need an auto-summary or something! lol

[Buzzed]

Are teachers allowed to spank at this school?

kinky