College Selection 0_o

[warf]

RIT. Insitute of TECHNOLOGY.


Do it. it's for the children!


Seriously, hte CO-OP proram gets you above base with everyone in any other college, however, it does take 5 years for an undergrda degree.

[Dataspel]

Serpent: getting into the 'computer' field, for lack of
better wording, isn't as degree-oriented as it used to be, say, 10 years
ago... I am even discouraged from getting a degree by the owners of the
company I work for.

Serpent, I think your employer is mistaken; they may not want to
lose you, or maybe they are just misinformed. On the other hand,
they may only be talking about PC tech support and administration
of small networks, in which case they may be right.

But there is a lot more to the computer field...

For example, entry level software engineers with a B.S. degree are
offered on average 50K with no experience, and have the chance to
earn a lot more. Even with outsourcing, I think programming is going to
continue to be one of the fastest growing American careers for the next
few decades. There are just too many consumer items that require
software for the demand to slow down. If you have the chance to
get a computer science degree, hurry and get one!

[D.A.R.K.[CotC]]

The thing I've heard about outsourcing is thus, and I quote a couple of guys that gave presentations about it:

"The reason that companies are outsourcing is because they can't find the right, qualified, and experienced people they would like here on the homefront. As such they look outside for those qualified people. But make no mistake, as one of the fastest growing careers in the world companies today are demanding higher quality and better trained computer related people than before, but the supply just isn't meeting that demand."

The people I heard this from said that this is what is being said by those top famous businessmen, among them Bill Gates, the guy from G.E., GM, and other companies.

[Scion]

Yeah, I'd tend to agree that you need the degree. My dad had one hell of a hard time finding a job in the programming field after retiring from the military a couple years ago. It didn't matter that he knew what he was doing, and did it all a lot better then most people out there...He doesn't have a degree at all, and it's made a massive impact on whether or not companies would even look at him or his work. Lucky for him he caught a break and is doing some awesome stuff for the VA hospital up in Ann Arbor, but that had a lot to do with the big guy upstairs looking out for dad. Degree!

And as far as outsourcing goes...it isn't about demand, they can simply get it cheaper elsewhere. I don't believe for an instant that it's about lack of qualified people, and I don't care how much money the person who's saying it makes. =P

Oh...and Wal-Mart sucks.

[Serpent]

And as far as outsourcing goes...it isn't about demand, they can simply get it cheaper elsewhere. I don't believe for an instant that it's about lack of qualified people, and I don't care how much money the person who's saying it makes. =P

Agreed, completely. I did a paper on this topic for school recently, and os many IT companies are all outsourcing for the same reason - they are CHEAP. You can outsource to China, Russia, India, etc... and get the same results as locally to the U.S., but FAR cheaper... and that is the reason for outsourcing, unfortunately... it's why I am considering changing industries...just not sure what to go to. heh

[D.A.R.K.[CotC]]

The problem that I think you guys are seeing is that a lot of people have that set stereotype that ALL jobs are being outsourced. That in itself is a complete lie.

Price is a factor for outsourcing, but depending on the job it can't be outsourced to just anybody. The most outsourced job, which lots of people overlook, is manual labor, clothes making, walmart type work, and other jobs of that sort. For jobs that require lots of technical skills and training they are EXTREMELY hard to outsource b/c the quality of that type of work that you really need to do the job you can't find just anywhere. I'd would love for you to go to china or India and pick some random person to do your job b/c "they'd do it for cheaper". That person would probably not even know what your job title means, let alone know how to do it in the first place, which would make it MORE expensive b/c they wouldn't even produce anything. Customer service for example is being outsourced b/c you don't need some highly qualified person with a degree in this and this to do it, anyone can do with a good hour or two of training. Companies outsource the lower training, easy jobs that lots of people do and can do, not the high-end jobs that only the few, well trained and taught can do.

For that same reason, how many idiots could run a computer? Probably a lot of them. How many idiots can make one? Probably none of them.

[Baron[CotC]]

The problem that I think you guys are seeing is that a lot of people have that set stereotype that ALL jobs are being outsourced. That in itself is a complete lie.

Price is a factor for outsourcing, but depending on the job it can't be outsourced to just anybody. The most outsourced job, which lots of people overlook, is manual labor, clothes making, walmart type work, and other jobs of that sort. For jobs that require lots of technical skills and training they are EXTREMELY hard to outsource b/c the quality of that type of work that you really need to do the job you can't find just anywhere. I'd would love for you to go to china or India and pick some random person to do your job b/c "they'd do it for cheaper". That person would probably not even know what your job title means, let alone know how to do it in the first place, which would make it MORE expensive b/c they wouldn't even produce anything. Customer service for example is being outsourced b/c you don't need some highly qualified person with a degree in this and this to do it, anyone can do with a good hour or two of training. Companies outsource the lower training, easy jobs that lots of people do and can do, not the high-end jobs that only the few, well trained and taught can do.

For that same reason, how many idiots could run a computer? Probably a lot of them. How many idiots can make one? Probably none of them.

My Dad was the manager for Autodesk's Quality Assurance team for their Mapguide product (Autodesk makes AutoCAD). The entire Mapguide division was outsourced to India and all the guys here were sent packing. Autodesk, being an American company, exploited some American tax law by outsourcing. I can't remember the exact numbers now, but they reduced the taxes they had to pay down to almost nil by doing it.

That was a Software Development/Testing lab that got moved to India, for tax reasons.

[Scion]

Yeah...just because they're in another country doesn't automatically make them idiots or uneducated. Just...cheaper. =P

[Serpent]

Here is an interesting quote, regarding high-level jobs versus low-level jobs ...

SBC

“ . . . they are offshoring my job. I have developed several procedures that include computer programs that I independently created that are useful in monitoring the status of a database. They expect me to train my replacement giving them my knowledge and then just go quietly away?!?”

—Name withheld

------------------

source: http://www.outsourceoutrage.com/who/

I would think that kind of job isn't the kind that takes a couple hours to train for. As a matter of fact, its similar to mine. I am the System Administrator of over approximately 20 unix-based servers that house websites and databases for some major companies here in the US. Granted, the company I work for, since the day I was hired back in 2000, sweared they would never outsource and they would never go public - b/c then they would lose control of their own company - I still fear for my job. I have no degree, though I am going to school to get one, but I do have almost 7 years professional experience doing this, and 4-5 more years personal experience doing the same.

[Death_Dealer[CotC]]

I have a degree and it did not get me into the industry. Everyone said you have no experience. But how could I if I couldnt get a job without.

[Ender[CotC]]

Im surprised that a company has the nerve to ask an employee they are about the let go/fire to train thier own replacement.

That would definetly not be satisfying. It's like they're getting rid of you because they hate you, but want to keep your ideas.

I don't know if any of you have seen the movie "the life of a house", but in that movie the main character, who works for a landscaping company, has to make a similar choice.

He's told he's being fired because they don't like that he's useing the old school method of modeling houses (making actual physical models) compared to the new computer aided modeling. After telling him this, they say that although he is being fired the models he has already made are property of the company and he can only pick one to take with him.

He ends up smashing all the models, with a giant tube that's used for carrying floor plans, and leaving with the one he picked....

That situation must suck.

[Dataspel]

Death_Dealer[CotC]I have a degree and it did not get me into the industry. Everyone said you have no experience. But how could I if I couldnt get a job without.

Sorry to hear that - if you are from Southern California, and graduated
after 2001 you may have been caught in the tech bust, which I understand
hit Silicon Valley and nearby areas hard. Things are getting better now,
you might contact your college and see if they can help you find some companies to interview.

[D.A.R.K.[CotC]]

Well, I thank you all for your inputs, they have helped me greatly in my decision, both with your opinions and your facts about the country itself. I am concluding this with "I have finally selected my college and have payed my $200 deposit (stupid money thieves)."

And that college is...

University of Michigan


I picked this one for a number of reasons:

Closer to home
Dad could get a new work in Winsor
Slightly cheaper (in-state tuition)
Nice campus
Brand new computer science and engineering buildings (opened January of this year)
relatively large size, but still manageable
Friends already there
Ranked among the top 10 universities in the U.S in EVERY field

Of course, RIT also has some great qualities that were hard to overlook... I will surely miss RIT... it was as great a place as UoM... Being the person that I am, I will keep going on about the what if's with my decision, but I promised myself to make the decision without regrets, so onward I go!... In 5 months...

[Buzzed]

For that same reason, how many idiots could run a computer? Probably a lot of them. How many idiots can make one? Probably none of them.

That was a Software Development/Testing lab that got moved to India, for tax reasons.

India is growing as is China faster than the USA and will soon pass the US in dollars invested into companies for the first time ever. US has always been #1.

India has 2,500,000 post secondary graduates each year. See the attached links a couple of excerpts from the links below:

Last year alone, outsourcing in India grew over 25 per cent, and India continued its domination over other competing countries such as China, Ireland, Israel and the Philippines.
India is in a position to cater to the demands of the market. Its biggest strength is its vast supply of over 2 million graduates and 300,000 post graduates that pass out of its colleges each year. Its vast resource of English-speaking college-educated workforce and low-cost labour gives it an edge in the offshoring world.
Every year, approximately 19 million students are enrolled in high schools and 10 million students in pre-graduate degree courses across India. Moreover, 2.1 million graduates and 0.3 million post-graduates pass out of India's non-engineering colleges.
While 2.5-3 percent of them find jobs in other fields or pursue further studies abroad, the rest opt for employment in the IT industry. Even at current rates, there will approximately be 17 million people available to the IT industry by 2008. Its hard to believe that 20 years ago, India had only 6,800 knowledge workers.


http://bobcares.com/article23.html

http://www.sunmediaonline.com/indiachro ... otech.html

[D.A.R.K.[CotC]]

Well...

"clients outsource work to get access to more specialized engineering talent, more particularly in the area of telecommunications.

This is from one of your articles Buzzed.
So... they can do call centers... pretty much

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/o ... ell21.html

Outsourcing is NOT anywhere near as bad as anybody says. Outsourcing does not kill jobs here, IT CREATES THEM! Above article is a must read.

http://softwarenews.wordpress.com/2006/ ... onception/

This one too, and a forewarning about this article. Whoever wrote it doesn't have a good grasp on grammar, so polish your English reading skills before reading this one.

And here are some figures I pulled from the CIA.gov website for you all to compare:

USA

GDP (purchasing power parity): $12.41 trillion
GDP (official exchange rate): $12.47 trillion (What does this mean?)
GDP - real growth rate: 3.5%
GDP - per capita (PPP): $42,000

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factboo ... .html#Econ

India

GDP (purchasing power parity): $3.699 trillion
GDP (official exchange rate): $720.3 billion (What's the difference here?)
GDP - real growth rate: 7.6%
GDP - per capita (PPP): $3,400

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factboo ... .html#Econ

China

GDP (purchasing power parity): $8.182 trillion
GDP (official exchange rate): $1.79 trillion (???)
GDP - real growth rate: 9.3%
GDP - per capita (PPP): $6,300

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factboo ... .html#Econ

Canada

GDP (purchasing power parity): $1.08 trillion
GDP (official exchange rate): $1.023 trillion
GDP - real growth rate: 2.9%
GDP - per capita (PPP): $32,900

http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factboo ... .html#Econ